Reply to my post from yesterday

Thank you, John, for your interest and comments. I am replying here because I think the points you brought up are so important that I need to make sure they get a separate posting and not be hidden in a comment thread.

For those that didn’t see John’s comments, go to the post for yesterday, November 10, and scroll down.

Here is my answer to your counterpoints (good ones, and well made):

Your comments are the very reason I tell people to read the Bible for themselves- you point out that Yeshua did, indeed, give the authority (or so it seems) to the Disciples (except Thomas) to remit or forgive sins in John 20:19-24.I forgot about that part, and stand corrected. At least, in that there is a reference indicating authority over sins. I’m not quite ready to agree that this is absolutely for every “priest” to have. There is no reference that this authority was transferable. Your comment that it was thereby conferred to their successors is not specifically confirmed in the Bible. I learned a long time ago that when reading or interpreting the Bible one cannot make an argument from nothing. If Yeshua did give authority over forgiveness of sins to these men, He did not say it was transferable. If you would, please verify if there is anything else in the writings, either in the Gospels or the letters that follow, that specifically mentions these Elders transferring the authority over forgiveness of sins.

I read a few commentaries about this verse, and I have some questions. One is if Yeshua gave authority to forgive sins, and the same authority to not forgive sins, then is He saying that there are sins that can’t be forgiven? He did say that blaspheming the Ruach HaKodesh is an unforgivable sin, but if say, Kefa (Peter) said someone was going to die in their sin, does that mean there are sins that the Grace of God cannot overcome? Isn’t that against what Shaul (Paul) says? Doesn’t he say (I believe this is in Romans) that as sin increases so too does Grace? Can a man state that a sin will not be forgiven, and then God has to abide by that? I agree that Yeshua did give more authority to the Disciples at that time than He did when He sent them out, but I don’t necessarily agree that they were allowed to forgive or to convict the sins of others. I believe (maybe only because I choose to) that what Yeshua was saying was that these men had the authority to identify sins, to hold people responsible for the sins they committed and accuse them of such, and to lead people to forgiveness when they ask for it, by praying to God for them. Hermeneutically,this makes sense since God often has asked others to pray on behalf of sinners. Abraham for Abimelech and Job for his friends, just to mention a couple of examples. I believe that is what Yeshua meant. No commentary, no “true” interpretation, just me, Steve, saying what I believe. No one has to agree.
Next: I am Messianic- thank you for noticing. I also believe that Yeshua was/is God in the flesh, but He was 100% human when He walked the Earth for those 30+ years. He was also 100% human when He died- if God dies, then raises Himself, big deal, right? I mean, after all- God can’t die. Something else God can’t do- He can’t sin or be associated with sin. But Yeshua took on the sin of the world, so how could He be God and take on sin? He had to be human.

Another question: did Yeshua come to Earth and do what He did to replace God? If you worship Yeshua as God, or even just pray to Yeshua for forgiveness, then you place Him between you and God. That’s the definition of idolatry, isn’t it? To have something that is between us and God?

Thirdly, Yeshua is the Messiah, yes? As such, His role (if you will) is to be the ultimate High Priest, in the manner of Melchizedek, forever. As High Priest, He intercedes between us and God. Not replacing God or coming between us by superseding God’s position, but interceding. The purpose for His “birth”, life, death and resurrection is to be the Messiah, and to rule the Earth. If we continue to worship Him as God, we are rejecting the whole reason He came to Earth, aren’t we? Unless you can show me the new Temple, the New Earth, and Messiah ruling the world from Jerusalem, His role is still the Messiah. When the Acharit HaYamim (End Days) have come and gone and we are all resurrected and the Enemy is in the Lake of Fire with all his pals, then, and only then, will we see what is what and who will be whom. For now, I still see Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah, the Saviour of the World, God’s son and God in the flesh but not the one, true, and only God. Dad is still Dad, and the Son is still the Son.

The Trinity exists and it is a Trinity- three in one, yes; three the same, yes; but three. I think the best example of this impossible to understand idea is ice in boiling water. You have a solid, a liquid and a gas- all three exactly the same at the atomic level, but in different forms physically. All three the exact same thing, but each one performing a different function. Ice to cool, water to slake thirst and cleanse, steam to heat up and provide power. All three the same exact thing, all three different in form and function. The function of Messiah, His “job”, if you will, was to bring the Good News of God’s salvation to the world and provide the means for everyone to be reconciled to God through the blood of His perfect sacrifice. After that His job is to intercede for us, to be our High Priest. Finally, His last position will be to rule the world. After the final battle, when all is done and we are all in the presence of God, well…I don’t know what Yeshua will do then. I don’t know what will happen to the Holy Spirit. Will they return to God? Once we are all perfect beings, will we need the Spirit or Yeshua? Will the ice and steam return to the Living Water and be one, again? Was it ever just One? Heck- I don’t know! The Bible doesn’t really help here, does it? John says there was the Word, and the Word became flesh. That implies a physiological change of existence. Something non-physical became physical, so can we assume or expect that when the plan of salvation is complete that things will go back to what they were? Again- I don’t know. Frankly, if I am there, I don’t care what happens. I’ll be there, and (for me) that’s all that matters.

One more final note, my new friend in the Lord: you say that Catholics don’t pray to statues. I have read some of the prayers that are directed to saints, and heard people pray TO Saint Peter, or pray TO Mother Mary. It makes no sense at all to “remember” a Saint when you are praying for something for yourself. And if the Saints don’t have special powers or authority, why is there an entire menu of things to pray for, each with it’s own Saint? Pray to Joseph for healing, pray to Mary to intercede with Yeshua, Pray to St. Jude for this, pray to St. Paul for that…c’mon, face it. Catholic people pray to the Saints.

The prayers of the saints, as mentioned in Revelations, is not the saints carrying the prayers of people to God- the context of that verse is that the saints (those who have died for Messiah and God- not the ones some Pope declared as a Saint) are sending God their own prayers. That’s why they ask, “How much longer?” Their prayers are for themselves. Yeshua said the only way to the Father is through the Son. “Only” doesn’t mean “only me, but you can also get to me through these others.” It means “only me.” Das ist alles! Nothing else, no interpretation, no malarkey about praying to others doesn’t affect the unique mediatorship of Christ (I saw that on a Catholic Answers web page.) Really? Praying to someone else doesn’t affect Yeshua’s unique position as the only path to God? How can something be unique if it is not singularly available? If I can pray to a saint, that does interfere with my prayer to Yeshua or to God. It is another level, an additional plea to another person.  I understand this is a doctrine of your faith, but it seems to be in direct conflict with what Yeshua said. I guess Jews could never make good Catholics: why pray retail to second-level saints when we can pray wholesale, right to God? It just don’t make sense! No-how, no-way.

God wants to hear our prayers, and He wants us to turn to Him for help. Not ourselves, not someone else, but to Him. That is clear throughout the Tanakh and the New Covenant. God is in charge, and He is the one to go to. Yeshua said when we look at Him we see the Father because He was the reflection of God’s holiness. Just as the Talmud says when we look in the Torah it should be a mirror in which we see ourselves. It is not literal, it is metaphoric. When Jeremiah told us about God’s New Covenant in 31:31 he was telling us that the Torah will be in our minds and written on our hearts- in other words, we will be living Torah, just as Yeshua. That’s why John said the Word became flesh- it is in keeping with Jewish thought about the Torah being a mirror.
One more, last, final note: you mention Paul writing about how no one is without sin. Not to pick on you, directly, but that is representative of the anti-Semitic attitude the Catholic church has had since day one! Paul did NOT say those things- he was quoting from David, Elijah and other prophets of the Old Covenant. That is the Catholic “uber-holy” mindset- they give all credit for God’s word to the New Covenant and are so adamant about not having any relationship or reference to the Jewish roots of Christianity that they plagiarize the word of God and associate all that he said in the Tanakh to being solely from the New Covenant. I don’t hate Catholics, but I have very little respect for the way the Catholic church has treated the Jewish people, and the very root of their “religion”. Yeshua said he won’t come back until Jerusalem (the Jewish people) say He is welcomed (I am paraphrasing) and Shaul confirms that by stating He won’t return until the full compliment of the Gentiles are brought into the kingdom, making the Jewish people jealous for their Messiah (implying the influx of Believing, or Messianic, Jews). The Catholic church is way, way behind a lot of the rest of Christianity in that they don’t want to recognize their Jewish roots. It is still as it has been: the Catholic church doesn’t want anything to do with the Jewish people, and they just don’t want Jews around, apparently. Convert them all to Catholicism, the only “true” religion. Until they get that rid of that ridiculous attitude, they are going to be unpleasantly surprised when the stuff hits the fan.

Comments

  1. Steven R. Bruck
    De Maria November 12, 2014 at 09:38

    To continue with my reply to your post titled, “reply to my post from yesterday”.

    I read a few commentaries about this verse, and I have some questions. One is if Yeshua gave authority to forgive sins, and the same authority to not forgive sins, then is He saying that there are sins that can’t be forgiven?

    He is saying that He has given the Church authority to represent God in this world. And the Church understood that they had this authority, because the Apostle says:

    2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    He did say that blaspheming the Ruach HaKodesh is an unforgivable sin,

    The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is the unpardonable sin, correct.

    but if say, Kefa (Peter) said someone was going to die in their sin, does that mean there are sins that the Grace of God cannot overcome?

    Yes. The sin of unrepentance is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Unless one repents of their sins, God will not forgive them.

    Isn’t that against what Shaul (Paul) says? Doesn’t he say (I believe this is in Romans) that as sin increases so too does Grace?

    St. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write those words. He was also inspired of the Holy Spirit to write these:

    1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Do you think the Holy Spirit inspired St. Paul to contradict himself in Scripture?

    Not to mention contradicting Jesus Christ, who said:

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Can a man state that a sin will not be forgiven, and then God has to abide by that?

    God gave the Catholic Church the power to bind and loose (Matt 16:19; 18:18). All we can do is sit back and marvel:

    Matthew 9 :8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

    I agree that Yeshua did give more authority to the Disciples at that time than He did when He sent them out, but I don’t necessarily agree that they were allowed to forgive or to convict the sins of others. I believe (maybe only because I choose to) that what Yeshua was saying was that these men had the authority to identify sins, to hold people responsible for the sins they committed and accuse them of such, and to lead people to forgiveness when they ask for it, by praying to God for them. Hermeneutically,this makes sense since God often has asked others to pray on behalf of sinners. Abraham for Abimelech and Job for his friends, just to mention a couple of examples. I believe that is what Yeshua meant. No commentary, no “true” interpretation, just me, Steve, saying what I believe. No one has to agree.

    I’m glad you’re being honest. Although, if you think about it, God listening to Abraham’s, Moses, and Job’s more than others is the foundation for the Catholic belief. Moses especially, is the inspiration for the authority which God has now granted to the Church through St. Peter:

    Exodus 18:14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even? 15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God: 16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

    Next: I am Messianic- thank you for noticing. I also believe that Yeshua was/is God in the flesh, but He was 100% human when He walked the Earth for those 30+ years. He was also 100% human when He died- if God dies, then raises Himself, big deal, right? I mean, after all- God can’t die. Something else God can’t do- He can’t sin or be associated with sin. But Yeshua took on the sin of the world, so how could He be God and take on sin? He had to be human.

    That is precisely why God became man. In order that God could die and fulfill the promises of the Old Will and Testament.
    The Old Testament, is, in a certain sense, God’s will and testament for the Nation of Israel. As explained in Heb 9:15-17, that is why Jesus Christ, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, had to die in order to bring about the promises to the faithful elect of the Old Testament:

    Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Another question: did Yeshua come to Earth and do what He did to replace God? If you worship Yeshua as God, or even just pray to Yeshua for forgiveness, then you place Him between you and God. That’s the definition of idolatry, isn’t it? To have something that is between us and God?

    No. Jesus is God. As He, Himself, revealed.
    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    Notice that the Jews understood Him to be saying that He is God:
    John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    Thirdly, Yeshua is the Messiah, yes? As such, His role (if you will) is to be the ultimate High Priest, in the manner of Melchizedek, forever. As High Priest, He intercedes between us and God. Not replacing God or coming between us by superseding God’s position, but interceding. The purpose for His “birth”, life, death and resurrection is to be the Messiah, and to rule the Earth. If we continue to worship Him as God, we are rejecting the whole reason He came to Earth, aren’t we? Unless you can show me the new Temple, the New Earth, and Messiah ruling the world from Jerusalem, His role is still the Messiah. When the Acharit HaYamim (End Days) have come and gone and we are all resurrected and the Enemy is in the Lake of Fire with all his pals, then, and only then, will we see what is what and who will be whom. For now, I still see Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah, the Saviour of the World, God’s son and God in the flesh but not the one, true, and only God. Dad is still Dad, and the Son is still the Son.

    Hm? I don’t really understand that paragraph. You seem to answer your own question. Suffice for me to point out that, yes, Jesus Christ it true man and True God and it is because He became man that He can intercede for us in heaven:

    Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    That Lamb is Christ, the Lamb of God (John 1:29), interceding for us before His Father in heaven.

    The Trinity exists and it is a Trinity- three in one, yes; three the same, yes; but three. I think the best example of this impossible to understand idea is ice in boiling water. You have a solid, a liquid and a gas- all three exactly the same at the atomic level, but in different forms physically. All three the exact same thing, but each one performing a different function. Ice to cool, water to slake thirst and cleanse, steam to heat up and provide power. All three the same exact thing, all three different in form and function. The function of Messiah, His “job”, if you will, was to bring the Good News of God’s salvation to the world and provide the means for everyone to be reconciled to God through the blood of His perfect sacrifice. After that His job is to intercede for us, to be our High Priest. Finally, His last position will be to rule the world. After the final battle, when all is done and we are all in the presence of God, well…I don’t know what Yeshua will do then. I don’t know what will happen to the Holy Spirit. Will they return to God? Once we are all perfect beings, will we need the Spirit or Yeshua? Will the ice and steam return to the Living Water and be one, again? Was it ever just One? Heck- I don’t know! The Bible doesn’t really help here, does it? John says there was the Word, and the Word became flesh. That implies a physiological change of existence. Something non-physical became physical, so can we assume or expect that when the plan of salvation is complete that things will go back to what they were? Again- I don’t know. Frankly, if I am there, I don’t care what happens. I’ll be there, and (for me) that’s all that matters.

    Excellent! Another great example is time-past, present and future. All seamlessly, one.

    One more final note, my new friend in the Lord: you say that Catholics don’t pray to statues. I have read some of the prayers that are directed to saints, and heard people pray TO Saint Peter, or pray TO Mother Mary. It makes no sense at all to “remember” a Saint when you are praying for something for yourself. And if the Saints don’t have special powers or authority, why is there an entire menu of things to pray for, each with it’s own Saint? Pray to Joseph for healing, pray to Mary to intercede with Yeshua, Pray to St. Jude for this, pray to St. Paul for that…c’mon, face it. Catholic people pray to the Saints.

    Because we are in a New Dispensation. Jesus, who is our example, started it out by communing with Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor:

    Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

    And Jesus revealed that the spirits of the dead were alive and well in the after life, talking with each other:
    Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    and St. Paul reveals that we now walk amongst the spirits of just men made perfect:
    Hebrews 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Knowing all this and much more, how can anyone deny the communion of Saints?

    The prayers of the saints, as mentioned in Revelations, is not the saints carrying the prayers of people to God- the context of that verse is that the saints (those who have died for Messiah and God- not the ones some Pope declared as a Saint) are sending God their own prayers. That’s why they ask, “How much longer?” Their prayers are for themselves. Yeshua said the only way to the Father is through the Son.

    Awesome! Now, you realize you have just proven that the saints who died before us are still alive. And, those saints which are asking “how much longer?” are the saints in purgatory.

    But you’re only looking at one set of prayers:
    Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    These elders, are the SAINTS who went before us. Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, etc. It is they who are also receiving the prayers of the “saints battling” (us) and “saints suffering” (purgatory) and interceding before God.

    “Only” doesn’t mean “only me, but you can also get to me through these others.” It means “only me.” Das ist alles! Nothing else, no interpretation, no malarkey about praying to others doesn’t affect the unique mediatorship of Christ (I saw that on a Catholic Answers web page.) Really? Praying to someone else doesn’t affect Yeshua’s unique position as the only path to God?

    Have you ever wondered why we are the Body of Christ? Why St. Paul says, “I live no longer, but Christ in me”? Why he also says, “we are ambassadors of Christ”?

    No, if you understand Christian Theology, it does not affect the unique mediatorship of Christ. Because it is through Christ that we mediate.

    How can something be unique if it is not singularly available?

    Because it is only available through Him.

    If I can pray to a saint, that does interfere with my prayer to Yeshua or to God.

    If you idolize the Saint. But we realize that God listens to some more than others. The prayer of a just man is very efficacious. It is God who told the friends of Job to ask Job to intercede for them. We follow the same principle.

    Wow! Long! I’m going to take a rest and go to Mass. I’ll finish responding when I get back. Thanks for the opportunity to respond and hopefully explain some things of which you were not aware.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

    • Steven R. Bruck
      Steven R. Bruck November 12, 2014 at 11:32

      Long? Yes. I am very thankful to everyone for your comments, but this is moving-forward ministry and I feel we are at a standstill with this discussion. The thread is too long to be easily read-over by anyone, and we are just arguing points that will not be resolved. You believe as you believe, and I believe as I believe. I do not want to change you, and I will not become a Catholic. Ever. So, your comments are here for people to view- I have a job to get to and no time now to go over everything you said right at this moment, so I am giving you the ‘last word’ on this topic. Please keep following and commenting on anything else I may say, or have said, regarding future posts. I feel I need to keep the comment thread somewhat reasonable, so please forgive me for not allowing any more comments on this topic, and respect my wishes. I enjoy this back-and-forth, personally, but want people that may be coming on this site to be able to get information without having to read a thesis on theology (smiley face). Thank you.

  2. Steven R. Bruck
    De Maria November 11, 2014 at 23:09

    Hi, I’m another Catholic and if I may interject,

    Thank you, John, for your interest and comments. I am replying here because I think the points you brought up are so important that I need to make sure they get a separate posting and not be hidden in a comment thread.

    Good call. I agree as well.

    For those that didn’t see John’s comments, go to the post for yesterday, November 10, and scroll down.

    Here is my answer to your counterpoints (good ones, and well made):

    Your comments are the very reason I tell people to read the Bible for themselves-

    That’s the reason I thought I’d respond. I’ve read the Bible, several times and compared many versions. So, lets see if we can compare Doctrine to Scripture.

    you point out that Yeshua did, indeed, give the authority (or so it seems) to the Disciples (except Thomas) to remit or forgive sins in John 20:19-24.I forgot about that part, and stand corrected. At least, in that there is a reference indicating authority over sins.

    John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    I’m using the KJV because it is a Protestant version of the Bible and in the past, people have accused me of using a Bible which has a Catholic bias. But if you prefer any other which is found online, let me know. They all support Catholic Doctrine.

    I’m not quite ready to agree that this is absolutely for every “priest” to have.

    I don’t know how you understand the New Testament, but here’s the way I understand it.

    Jesus Christ, whom you call Yeshua, and yes, it is the same name. They are both English alliterations of the same Hebrew name which we don’t have the alphabet to spell. Anyway, He, did not write the New Testament. He established a Church (Matt 16:18). Appointed a leader for that Church (Matt 16:18-19; John 21:17) and then commanded that Church to make everyone in the world a student by Teaching them all His Doctrines until the end of time (Matt 28:19-21).

    It is this Church which wrote the New Testament based upon the oral Doctrines of Jesus Christ. And so, in order to understand what the New Testament says, one must first have a strong foundation in the Doctrines of Jesus Christ.

    And the Church has always taught that this authority was passed down to Priests by the laying on of hands of the presbytery (1 Tim 4:14).

    There is no reference that this authority was transferable. Your comment that it was thereby conferred to their successors is not specifically confirmed in the Bible.

    Why, yes, yes it is. But you have to understand Catholic Doctrine in order to recognize the Teaching. Let me show you. Please turn to Heb 13:17.

    Hebrews 13:17 King James Version (KJV)

    17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

    Any Catholic will recognize in those words, the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is the Sacrament within which we are forgiven of our sins by the Priest, who is here called our “ruler”.

    Note the following:
    1. We must submit to him.
    2. He watches over our souls.
    3. He gives an account of our souls. This is a reference to the sins which we have confessed.
    4. And we should submit to our priests for this sacrament with joy, otherwise, we will condemn ourselves (unprofitable for you).

    I have a question for you, though. You say you were raised a Jew. I don’t know much about Judaism. But I thought that Jews also kept a form of tradition which explained to them the Scripture?

    If this is true, do you think that Jesus would have neglected to establish some mechanism in order that His Traditions and Doctrines could be understood by future generations? Or do you follow the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura?

    I learned a long time ago that when reading or interpreting the Bible one cannot make an argument from nothing. If Yeshua did give authority over forgiveness of sins to these men, He did not say it was transferable. If you would, please verify if there is anything else in the writings, either in the Gospels or the letters that follow, that specifically mentions these Elders transferring the authority over forgiveness of sins.

    The laying of hands mentioned before (1 Tim 4:14) passes along all gifts of the Holy Spirit to the ordained minister. Heb 13:17 as explained above. James 5:16 says confess to one another and is a reference to the Confiteore which we still pray at the beginning of every Mass. It is for the remission of venial sins and is prayed by the entire congregation in the presence of the Priest who is presiding over the Mass. 2 Cor 5:18 makes reference to the ministry of reconciliation which is the same thing as the Sacrament of reconciliation wherein we are forgiven of sins. And St. Paul instructs St. Timothy to instruct more men who will instruct more men (2 Tim 2:2).

    Well, I don’t know how long I can make a comment. So, I’ll abbreviate this one. I’ll start on the rest of your points, tomorrow.

    …. It is still as it has been: the Catholic church doesn’t want anything to do with the Jewish people, and they just don’t want Jews around, apparently. Convert them all to Catholicism, the only “true” religion. Until they get that rid of that ridiculous attitude, they are going to be unpleasantly surprised when the stuff hits the fan.

    One last thing. I’m assuming you consider the New Testament to be inspired of God.

    If you read it, you will find the truth there. The foundation of the Catholic Church, is Jewish. Jesus, Mary, the Apostles, the first generation of Saints.

    And you will find that it is the Jews who had Jesus killed and who persecuted the Church. This attitude continues to this day. Because, as St. Paul mentions,

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Anyway, I hope my message is received in a spirit of fraternity.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria

    • Steven R. Bruck
      Steven R. Bruck November 12, 2014 at 06:21

      I understand your use of Catholic Doctrine to explain the Bible. However, it is supposed to be the other way around. The verses you use have been taken out of context in order to justify a policy that was conceived first, the proof of which was then sought out from using the words of Yeshua (by the way, His Hebrew name is not unspellable and has definite meaning. Yohashua is translated as the Salvation of God.) Your explanation is very much a Catholic point of view, and it doesn’t matter which translation of the Bible you use (most every one of them is anti-Semitic, so far as I am concerned) because the Catholic Doctrine was created by Catholic leadership, then justified by pulling out of the Bible the verses that are needed to prove it “true”, and the interpretation does not use Circles of Context. We are told that if we seek, we will find. Allow me to take that a little out of context, also, and use it to state that the Bible has so much in it, that if we want to prove something we can find multiple verses that will appear to support our interpretation, so long as we use them out of context.
      I am not going to argue each point you make; I will leave that to each reader to go to your referenced verse, look to the entire paragraph, then the book, who wrote it and to whom, and the context of the statements before and after, and each one can determine for themselves if your “argument” is valid, both contextually and hermeneutically. I will mention one thing: the Doctrine of Christ is the Torah. That is the only “Word” that existed. He quoted Torah, He interpreted it correctly for us, and He lived it to perfection. There is no other “Doctrine” of Christ, and to even imply that Yeshua made up His own rules or doctrine is to call Him a blasphemer and usurper of the word of God. Yeshua/Jesus did His Father’s bidding, spoke only about His Father’s work He was to do, and never, never, NEVER told us to pray to Him or to worship Him. That is the role of the Anti-Christ. The Catholic Doctrines that are taught to be formed and originated by Jesus can’t be from Christ unless they are directly from the Torah. That is what Yeshua taught from, that is what He wrote (if you believe He is the son of God) and, according to John, that is what He represented as the word becoming flesh. I respect your devotion and, as Shaul said, zealousy is not bad as long as you are zealous for the right thing. Catholic Doctrine is just that- a Catholic Doctrine, and those that are zealous for it are going in the wrong direction.

      • Steven R. Bruck
        De Maria November 12, 2014 at 08:46

        Hello Steven,

        Thanks for your reply,

        I understand your use of Catholic Doctrine to explain the Bible. However, it is supposed to be the other way around. …

        I understand that is your opinion, but the fact remains, that Jesus did not write the New Testament. He established a Church, appointed a Leader, and commanded His Church to teach His commands. That Church then wrote the New Testament based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ.

        Therefore, in order to understand the New Testament, one must understand the context in which they were written.

        To that end, the Catholic Church instructs us:
        113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“. . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

        This is saying that the Sacred Deposit of God’s word which Jesus Christ deposited with the Church, is still alive in the Traditions of the Church. We believe this and it is confirmed in Scripture where it says:

        Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

        And again:

        2 Peter 1:19-21King James Version (KJV)

        19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

        20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

        21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

        The verses you use have been taken out of context in order to justify a policy that was conceived first, ….

        Here’s the thing. Between you and I, I am showing you the context within which the New Testament was written.

        You are simply rejecting my answers with a flick of the wrist.

        I am not going to argue each point you make; I will leave that to each reader to go to your referenced verse, look to the entire paragraph, then the book, who wrote it and to whom, and the context of the statements before and after, and each one can determine for themselves if your “argument” is valid, both contextually and hermeneutically.

        Thank you. I believe that is fair.

        I will mention one thing: the Doctrine of Christ is the Torah. That is the only “Word” that existed. He quoted Torah, He interpreted it correctly for us, and He lived it to perfection.

        Amen! Now, since you mention the Torah and say it is the only “Word”. Do you believe the New Testament is the Word of God?

        There is no other “Doctrine” of Christ, and to even imply that Yeshua made up His own rules or doctrine is to call Him a blasphemer and usurper of the word of God.

        Lol! You don’t really believe in Jesus Christ. Let me show you:

        Hebrews 9:15King James Version (KJV)

        15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

        That says that Jesus Christ died for the redemption of the sins of the FIRST or Old Testament. When He did so, it was in order to make it possible for the faithful Jews, those who had not lost their election by rebellion, could receive the promised inheritance and enter the promised land.

        As the Apostle explains:

        Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

        Now, the reason for God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity taking on flesh becomes evident. Jesus becomes man in order to die so that the Old Testament, God’s written Will (as in will and testament) could be fulfilled. The Apostle continues:

        Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

        Yeshua/Jesus did His Father’s bidding, spoke only about His Father’s work He was to do, and never, never, NEVER told us to pray to Him or to worship Him.

        Yes, actually. Who is the Lord of the Sabbath in your opinion?

        Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

        But then, you might want more context:

        Matthew 12 :1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

        Jesus and His disciples were walking through a grain field on the Sabbath and the disciples were picking the grains.

        2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

        The Pharisees saw this and complained that they were profaning the Sabbath.

        3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

        4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

        Jesus reminded them of the time when King David, our patriarch, was hiding from King Saul. And he came to the Temple of God and asked for food for himself and his men. The priests of the Temple gave them the showbread which it was not lawful for them to eat. Only the priests could eat it.

        5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

        And the priests could work all day in the temple and remain blameless before God. Outside of the Temple the priests had to keep the Sabbath. But within the Temple, they had the freedom to do God’s work.

        6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

        The Levitical priests served the Temple on the Sabbath Day. But Jesus is greater than the Temple, therefore, Jesus is God.

        7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

        The Levitical priests, serving the Temple, could not profane the Sabbath. Therefore, the New Testament Priests, the disciples of Jesus Christ, could not profane the Sabbath because they were serving Jesus Christ.

        8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

        Because Jesus Christ is Lord and God of the Sabbath day.

        That is the role of the Anti-Christ. The Catholic Doctrines that are taught to be formed and originated by Jesus can’t be from Christ unless they are directly from the Torah. That is what Yeshua taught from, that is what He wrote (if you believe He is the son of God) and, according to John, that is what He represented as the word becoming flesh. I respect your devotion and, as Shaul said, zealousy is not bad as long as you are zealous for the right thing. Catholic Doctrine is just that- a Catholic Doctrine, and those that are zealous for it are going in the wrong direction.

        The Old Testament has been brought to a close. The New Testament of Jesus Christ is a new dispensation wherein we walk with the Saints upon Mount Sion. Leave the Old Testament behind. Come into the New and receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in its fullness, which is only in the Catholic Church:

        Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

        Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

        Thanks for your reply.

        Sincerely,

        De Maria

        • Steven R. Bruck
          Steven R. Bruck November 12, 2014 at 09:04

          Wow. You certainly do know the word, all of it. That’s refreshing to hear a non-Jewish Believer using the Old and New Covenants together as one, which I DO believe they are. One word, one God, and please don’t tell me I don’t believe in Jesus Christ because I don’t agree with you. That is below you. I do believe that Yeshua is the Messiah promised in Scripture, that the “old” is the telling of our people, the history of how we came to be, how and why God choose us and the revealing of God’s plan of Salvation. The “new” is the telling of how that plan came to fruition, and what the final stages will be. I am saved by the blood of Messiah, and don’t you doubt it for a minute.
          Other than that, good response. I doubt i will ever believe in or accept the Doctrines of the Catholic church, anymore than I would expect or try to make you a nice, Yiddisha goil. We each have to make our own decisions.

          • Steven R. Bruck
            De Maria November 12, 2014 at 09:42

            Amen! Thank you, Steven. I didn’t mean to offend. I meant something else, but articulating it might cause another unintended offense, so, I’ll simply apologize for my mistake. Thanks for your cordial response.

Comments welcomed (just be nice)