I am proving myself either crazy, suicidal or brave by even thinking about approaching this topic.
But, then again, if I believe I am given insight (the same should be the rule with everyone) and can show in the bible why I believe this way, then I should share it with you. If you disagree with me, I will not say you are wrong- I am simply telling you what I believe. I wish more people could have discussions without attacking each other’s beliefs, because in the long run, God will be the judge if I am right or wrong, and it is up to Him to set me straight. If we disagree, we should be able to do so with mutual respect, compassion, and leave it at we agree to disagree. Too often I see and hear people attacking each other, insulting each other, calling each other stupid or uneducated simply because they don’t agree. That is not how we should act.
So, here it comes.
Let’s start with the basics: Yeshua is the Messiah, and He existed before He came to earth. I really don’t know if He was God then, and became a separate entity in order to exist in our physical plane, or if He was always a separate entity but equal in divinity to God. I can’t find anything in the bible except that He appears to have been an eternal being with divine powers.
When He came to earth, He had to be able to suffer the temptations and illnesses of all humans (Isaiah 53) and to be able to die. For that to happen, and here is what is really amazing- which most people never understand the impact of- He voluntarily stripped off His divinity and took on a mantle of flesh! Yeshua was divine, He was eternal, He was all-powerful, yet He gave all that up just so that He could be a human being and die in order to give us a chance, just a chance, to be with God forever. Have you ever really thought about that? Could you have done that?
When Yeshua was born, He came out of Miryam’s womb as a human being: not eternal, not divine, just plain, old human. I say again, He had to be totally human so that He could take on our sins (a divine being cannot be associated with sin) and so that He could die. A sacrifice that cannot die (in other words, a divine being that is immortal) would not have been a “real’ sacrifice, and without a sacrificial death there is no remittance of sin, and our salvation is unfounded. But…our salvation is founded in that death, for Yeshua surely did die. The spear in His side proved it. So, whatever Yeshua was before He came to earth, He was 100% human while He lived on the earth and all the miracles He performed were done with the power that came from (a separate and unique) God through the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), which was the same exact way miracles had been performed by the Prophets before Him, and by the Apostles after Him.
The one, and most important, difference between Yeshua and all other humans was that Yeshua was not born into the sin of Adam and Eve. Because of His supernatural birth, and through His resurrection, His sacrifice was able to free us of our sins and continues to do so, for now He is a Priest and Cohen forever (Hebrews 7:17.) His blood is still viable, He is still able to cleanse us with His blood because it still exists, and will forever.
I think that every time someone asks for forgiveness in Yeshua’s name, He spills a little more of His blood.
Finally, Yeshua was resurrected and became eternal, again, but he is not divine because he has to serve as Cohen HaGadol for all humanity until the plan of salvation is complete, which won’t be until the Millennial Rule is over, the Adversary and all his demons are thrown into the Lake of Fire and the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem appear. In other words, He is still a separate and unique living entity from God. Once all is done, I do not know what will happen. Maybe He will remain the way He is, maybe He will be divine again and still the Son, maybe He will be “absorbed” back into God (which would imply the Holy Spirit would be,also) and there will be just the one and only God…who knows? I sure don’t! But, then again, who cares? I won’t, because I will be in God’s presence for all eternity, and it won’t really matter.
So, now for the biblical “proof” that I have for my position. First off, every letter that Shaul wrote to the Messianic Communities started off with a greeting from Shaul, then from God AND Yeshua. Not God, who is Yeshua, not Yeshua, who is God, but from “God the Father and Yeshua the Messiah.” Every letter from every Apostle, who lived with Yeshua for years, identifies God and Yeshua as separate entities. In Revelation 20:6– now remember that this book is the vision given to John directly from Yeshua- it says this:
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Yeshua and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Notice it says priests (cohanim) of God AND of Yeshua: not priest of God, who is Yeshua, or of God who is Messiah, but “of God and of Yeshua.” The vision of John sees two separate, unique entities ruling in heaven.
There are some places where we hear Yeshua refer to Himself as being the “A” and the “Z”, and how before Abraham was, He is, which means He had no beginning and no end, and that is true in my understanding. As I started off saying, He was eternal and divine, then He gave that up to die, but when He was resurrected, although not divine, He is again eternal, so being ‘the beginning and the end’ while remaining a separate being from God is a valid statement about Himself. He also constantly talked using parables and riddles, hyperbole and speaking spiritually in the same breath He would speak regarding the physical world. He was of spiritual birth but in a physical form, so He was in both a spiritual and physical place at the same time. Sort of like the Prophets that were taken up in the spirit (Ezekiel, for example) but still physically present on earth. But Yeshua was able to be in both places at the same time and stay in control of Himself.
When He told His Talmudim (students, or Disciples) that when we see Him we see the Father so He and the Father are One, it was a metaphorical statement. He said that He did nothing other than what the Father told Him to do, and said nothing other than what the Father told Him to say, which means (literally) Yeshua was a puppet, so to speak, whose actions and words were not of His own but directly from the Father. That being the case, in His statement that when we see Him we see the Father, for they are One, He was telling us that He is a perfect representation of what the Father does and says. A separate, unique and different entity but still only doing and saying what the Father wants Him to do and say, therefore, seeing Him is seeing the Father, in a matter of speaking, and as such, there is no difference between them from the viewpoint of what Yeshua did and said.
This is very hard to understand, and you don’t have to agree with my belief. If you would like to discuss this, I would ask that you post your comments below, but please don’t be abusive or impolite. I review all comments before they are made public and one’s that do not serve to edify or educate, but are simply attacks without merit, will not be honored with a reply.
Hopefully, those of you who believe differently may have an open mind, and think what I believe may be possible, and maybe there are those who believe as I believe. Let me add one more thing, if I may- we don’t need to know if Yeshua is God or not, really. All we need is to do T’Shuvah (repentance), be faithfully obedient to God, accept Yeshua as our Messiah, observe Torah (as best we can) and constantly ask forgiveness of our sins by reason of Yeshua’s sacrifice.
Can a Spirit Being Die?
This article was written by Voy Wilks.
Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yahshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer.
“And Yahshua answering said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels; and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection.” (Lu.20:34-36, RSV).
We see that angels of Yahweh cannot die. Once resurrected we will be “equal to the angels” in that we cannot die either. Why is this? It is because we are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection. But when do we become spirit beings? Is this the same as becoming “sons of Yahweh?”
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” (1Cor.15:35, 42-44).
It is at the (first) resurrection that we become a spirit being – that we obtain a spiritual body. Please notice the following things that happen at the (first) resurrection:
We are raised in power
We are raised in glory
We are raised incorruptible
We are raised to immortality (1 Cor. 15:52)
We are raised equal to angels
We are raised to become sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection
We are raised with a spiritual body
We are raised to immortality so we cannot die anymore
Luke says those of the first resurrection cannot die. Synonyms of “cannot die” are “incorruption” and “immortal.” Paul says those of the first resurrection come forth as spiritual bodies and are incorruptible and put on immortality. Accepting the statements of both Luke and Paul, we find that spirit beings cannot die. When did Yahshua become a spirit being? Again, the Scriptures have the answer.
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Yahshua] was made a quickening [life-giving] spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” (1Co.15:44-46).
This indicates the Messiah was not a spirit being before he was born physically. The physical (body) comes, then the spiritual (body). When was Yahshua declared to be the son of Yahweh? Just as we will be sons of Yahweh by our resurrection from the dead, so Yahshua was declared to be the son of Yahweh “by his resurrection from the dead” (Rom.1:4).
Conclusion? Once mortal man receives immortality (a spiritual body) he cannot die. Is Deity any less? We must conclude, then, that Deity cannot die – in the past, the present, or in the future. Therefore, Yahshua was not Deity nor did he exist as a spiritual being before the world existed – except in the plans of the Father – plans made from the beginning.
“Who verily was foreordained [in the plans] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,” (1Pe.1:20).
* “That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit” (Jn.3:6). It is one or the other. No person can be both at the same time.
Udenna,
Thank you for your input. It is a well-written argument that makes sense, biblically as well as just plain common sense.
As I explained to someone else, a while ago, I have found this discussion, the trinity vs. unity discussion, so divisive that I tend to stay away from it now, unless I find it unavoidable.
I have come to realize, at least for myself, that it is not really a salvation issue, so long as the person believes in God the creator of all, and Yeshua as the Messiah God promised to send. It is our faith in Yeshua as the Messiah which is the foundation stone of our salvation: faith in his deity, or lack thereof, is not a condition for salvation. Whether Yeshua is God or not (and we all know how I feel about that) is not going to make me any more “saved” than my acceptance and trust in Yeshua as my Messiah.
I attempted to post here, I enjoyed this article and have a similar view but it called me spam? Hopefully you get what I wrote, I run a WordPress site and usually see the marked comments on my end. My site is here where you can find my talks on the Son of God part 1 and 2. https://bibletalkwithleeanthony.org/podcasts-with-lee-anthony/
Thank you for the post and for thinking outside the delusion Steve. I’m like you I’m just looking for people that understand from the original bible found in the dead sea scrolls (the Targums (arabic for translation)) That our Lord Yeshua is the Son of God in Spirit and Body. He is also the Temple of God, in that His Father’s Holy Spirit, His God’s Spirit dwells with Him. No Hellenistic trinity or incarnate. I can not, after learning the Targum truth, deny that Yeshua has a spirit born of God, in that I feel as if I’m denying the existence of my master for the sake of acceptance of those following the great delusion.
Hi – I was indeed very happy that someone is willing to see the truth:
JERUSALEM Targum (old testament before Catholics or their corruptions) – Exodus Chapter 6 . And the Lord was revealed in His Word unto Abraham, to Izhak, and to Jakob, AS THE GOD OF HEAVEN; but the Name of the Word of the Lord was not known to them. No one has seen the true God – they saw the one who spoke as and acted as God – the Word of Yahweh. Oh yes, the catholics removed hundreds of the instances of the Spirit of the Word – talking and acting as God from their Bible to make the Hellenistic incarnating trinity and incarnation fit. For example let’s look on mount Saini at Moses, the Word and his God and Father. . – Exodus (Shemoth) Chapter 33: Targum of Onkelos (Mosheh speaking with the Word of Yahweh who is speaking for Yahweh) And he said, Show me, I pray, Thy Glory! And He said, I will make all My Goodness pass before thy face, and I will proclaim the Name of the Lord before thee, and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And He said, THOU CANST NOT SEE THE FACE OF MY SHEKINAH; for NO MAN CAN SEE ME AND ABIDE ALIVE. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place prepared before Me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock, and it shall be, when My Glory passes, I will put thee in a cavern of the rock, and MY WORD SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE UNTIL I HAVE PASSED; and I will take away THE WORD OF MY GLORY, and thou shalt see that which is after Me, BUT MY ASPECT SHALL NOT BE SEEN.
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From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
Shekinah: The majestic presence or manifestation of God
So when the Word exclaimed in the flesh as the begotten Son of God: John 5:37-40 King James Version (KJV) 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Our Messiah Yeshua was not lying, no one has seen the personage of God or heard His voice – The Spirit and body they saw, the voice they heard was Yeshua’s – speaking as Yahweh – as the Word of Yahweh. Whether as a Spirit called the Word of Yahweh speaking or acting as God or as Yeshua speaking and acting as his God and creator in the spirit and flesh.
Our Lord Yeshua, the Word of Yahweh was born of Yahweh in the Spirit not just the flesh. This among things is what the catholics, in the spirit of anti-christ wants the world to deny, to cover-up.
ISAIAH 10 (BEN UZIEL Targum – )
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11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, AND HE THAT FORMED HIM, Ye question me about things concerning my people, which shall come to pass; and will ye command me concerning the work of my power? 12 It is I who have made the earth by my Word, and I have created man upon it; it is I who have suspended the heavens by my power, and I have laid the foundation of all the hosts of them. 13 It is I who will verily bring him forth publicly, and all his paths I will direct: he shall build my city, and he shall let the captives of my people go, not for a price nor for money, saith the Lord of hosts.
I’m not sure that you caught that – and He that formed Him –
The apostles knew this as well:
Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Isaiah 10:11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, AND HE THAT FORMED HIM, Ye question me about things concerning my people, which shall come to pass; and will ye command me concerning the work of my power? 12 It is I who have made the earth by my Word, and I have created man upon it;
1 John 4: …2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that the Messiah Yeshua has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does
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not confess Yeshua, is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.
You may think that denying the creation, the birth of the Spirit of the Word means nothing, because of the delusion that we grew up in, but please reconsider: Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny BEFORE MY FATHER who is in heaven.
Mark 15:34 Yeshua exclaimed, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Luke 23:46 And when Yeshua had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘INTO YOUR HANDS I commit My SPIRIT.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last.
James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. John 20:17 Yeshua said – ‘I am ascending to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER, and to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.’ ” John 14:28 He also said – , ‘I am going to the Father,’ for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.
Thank you for letting me expound a bit dear brother! Shalom,
Louis,
Thank you for your comments.
This post was from a while ago, and since the time when I wrote it I have found the argument about Trinity or Unity to be one where there is such a passionate desire for each side that I don’t really bother arguing it anymore. I have found once someone has chosen their belief they don’t want to give it up, and I can sort of understand that because I don’t expect to change my mind about it, either. 🙂
Thank you, though, for the additional points you made, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply and add to this topic.
Louis,
Again, thank you for your insights.
I have decided that in the end, it doesn’t affect our salvation one way or the other so I just stay away from the whole discussion because it brings nothing but confusion and dissension.